Wingfield and Bookman: Iraq, the past, the future

kyle-Jay

My friend and colleague Kyle Wingfield sat down yesterday to talk a bit about Iraq, the lessons it might teach us about foreign policy, its impact on the 2016 presidential elections and what the future may hold.

A little explanation on the process: Kyle and I agree on a topic, then each prepares a number of points that we want to make. However, neither of us knows specifically what the other is going to say. The results are then woven together into a finished product by AJC producer Elissa Eubanks.



For further recent reading on the topic:

http://jaybookman.blog.ajc.com/2015/05/11/hillary-the-bush-brothers-and-the-decision-to-invade-iraq/

http://jaybookman.blog.ajc.com/2015/04/15/1520/

http://jaybookman.blog.ajc.com/2015/04/09/dick-cheney-embodies-much-that-is-wrong-with-todays-america/

Reader Comments 0

292 comments
juvenal
juvenal

my Q is, since we saw how well taking out Saddam went, why did we take out Qadaffi, & who decided? 

lvg
lvg

@juvenal Good point- lay that one at Hilary's doorstep.

honested
honested

@juvenal 

Only that one was done by Quadaffi's tribal buddies.

 

TomMiddleton
TomMiddleton

With both Sunnis and Shias still battling it out all these centuries later over who gets to speak for Mohammed, how can there be a resolution to Middle East conflict without this ever being resolved?

And what about the Jews still thinking of themselves as “God's chosen” after all they've had to go through, I guess still thinking that if they choose to do something, it must be OK with God, right?

And while we're at it, let's not leave out the Christians having to relearn what Jesus taught and all three need to understand, that only God can speak for God or he wouldn't have told his followers to love the Lord with all their “heart, soul, and mind.”

The problem is not with the one God of us all, by whatever name he is called, but with those still claiming to speak for him, yet who clearly don't have a clue what true religion is or how to worship.

Regarding our bringing peace to the Middle East (and to the rest of the world as well), the only way out of this quagmire is for all of us to learn to “hear” that still, small, true voice of God!

josef
josef

Well, looks like the IMAM cut and ran on this one!  SHEETZ and some sure to achieve the purpose of the maximum amount of ill will amongst the posters on hump day...  LOL

josef
josef

@JayBook @josef 

LOL...

Hey, I've been busy refereeing three grandboys!  
Easier job than yours! 

JayBook
JayBook moderator

@josef 

It's not my fault you show up three and a half hours late to the party.

Philo_Farnsworth
Philo_Farnsworth

Why does potus feel no compunction to articulate in no uncertain terms his strategy in the ME?

All he does is nothing, feeling confident his minions in conjunction with his always-faithful MSM will successfully sell his White Flag initiative to the gullible masses.

Who can blame him? It seems to be working.

Nick_Danger
Nick_Danger

@Philo_Farnsworth 

"Why does potus feel no compunction to articulate in no uncertain terms his strategy in the ME?"

Do the Falcons share their strategy with the other team?  Sheesh!

Philo_Farnsworth
Philo_Farnsworth

He had no reluctance to state his C&R date certain, did he?

JayBook
JayBook moderator

@Philo_Farnsworth 

Yes, 4,000 air attacks against ISIS, successful Special Forces assaults on ISIS leaders, 3,000 military trainers and advisers in Iraq, thousands of Syrians being trained = "nothing

honested
honested

@Philo_Farnsworth 

Why do the Citizens of the United States have any responsibility for the disaster wrought by g.w. bush?

lvg
lvg

@Philo_Farnsworth Kinda hard when the Saudis want US to join them and Al Queda in wiping out Shiites  in Yemen who we oppose and in Iraq, Iran wants us to partner up with their Shiite militias who are more effective than Iraqi army and in Syria we are opposing everyone -ISIL, Al queda, Hezbollah, Assad, Al Nusra etc. etc.. Explain how Obama (potus to you) is to handle all that? Bomb everyone? or cut and run.??

honested
honested

@Bulls_3y3 @honested @Philo_Farnsworth 

Yes, Congress did enable g.w. bush to commit the worst disaster in the history of United States Foreign Policy.

So I hope Congress is not stupid enough today to wade back into that disaster and attempt to make the Citizens of the United States jointly or severally responsible for their lack of common sense.

JayBook
JayBook moderator

Rand Paul: 

"ISIS exists and grew stronger because of the hawks in our party who gave arms indiscriminately and most of those arms were snatched up by ISIS. These hawks also wanted to bomb Assad which would have made ISIS’s job even easier. They created these people. ISIS is all over Libya because the same hawks in my party loved Hillary Clinton’s war in Libya, they just wanted more of it. But Libya is a failed state and a disaster, Iraq really is a failed state or a vassal state now of Iran, so everything they’ve talked about in foreign policy they’ve been wrong about for 20 years and yet they somehow have the gall to keeping saying and pointing figures otherwise."

JeffreyEav
JeffreyEav

Stop making me agree with Rand Paul.

josef
josef

@JayBook 

The former Iraq a vassal of Iran?  That won't fly in Erbil...

GaGirl53171875
GaGirl53171875

Yes, Paul is and then he starts courting the right-wing fringe folks and he loses all credibility.

Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@JayBook Once again, even though he's a Republican, he's talking a lot of sense on this particular topic.


lvg
lvg

@JayBook So by going back 20 years is Paul saying the Gulf War was a mistake? and was it in hindsight? Up until then US policy was to keep US troops out of the Mideast or cut and run when they were attacked and killed(Saint Ronnie).????? 

Remember what April Glaspie said to Sadaam- not US priority if you attack Kuwait.

josef
josef

There is no such reality as Iraq, there is no such thing as “the Iraqi people.”It’s hard to take seriously any discussion of “why did this happen, what to do” sounding for all the world like Aunt Pittypat.And, once again, the Kurds don’t figure into the equation.They, by the way, over in the former Syria have now liberated from ISIS the last of the Assyrian towns and have credited and thanked the coalition, and specifically the United States, air strikes for making it possible.

You want to defeat ISIS and you don’t want boots on the ground?Well, duh, throw your support behind those who can get the job done, won’t go running off at the first sign of trouble leaving behind more arms for the enemy.Duh.

 

Paul42
Paul42

@josef

One point I heard, which seems reasonable, is for the US to encourage talks between Turkey and Kurds in Iraq with the goal of Kurds renouncing territorial claims in Turkey and Turkey engages ISIS along their border.

honested
honested

@Paul42 @josef 

The problem is obviously with the 'renouncing' part.

The Kurds obviously want a homeland not beholden to either Tehran or Riyad and are demonstrating where they think that homeland is and how hard they will fight to retain it.

Too bad the other invented countries around them haven't come to grips with a similar standpoint.

josef
josef

@Paul42 @josef 

Sounds good in theory.  However, there's that Erdogan thingie at work, the last thing we need right now is another alliance with a devil...

honested
honested

There was a useful question in the exchange for all Presidential Candidates:

"What would you do now"?


Any fool running for President who would wade back into the biggest mistake in the history of American Foreign Policy shows they are not ready to be President of the United States.


Let the members of the various superstitions sort this out.

Philo_Farnsworth
Philo_Farnsworth

C&R was Bammie's precursor to his Operation White Flag initiative in the ME today.

Speaking truth, one of Philo's charms.

Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@Bulls_3y3 @Tuna Meowt @Philo_Farnsworth "already proved my point fish breath"


You posted a claim that someone debunked with Snopes, and that 'proved your point?'


XD (pointing, laughing)


"you're full of it."


Ah, the mating call of the defeated internet argument-troll!  SNICKER.   :D


"time to move on and get away from the crap."


I already told you to take a frickin' HIKE, Pumpkin.  Get a sense of urgency and MAKE IT HAPPEN.


Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@Nick_Danger @Bulls_3y3 @Tuna Meowt @Philo_Farnsworth "What, exactly, is funny about the Signal Corp?  You hatin' on our troops again?"


I *offered* to explain things to him just like a bunch of us did for TeeDee last week, but he's not having it.  Plus, he tried to make the leftover chemweaps *my* fault, which is why I had to tell him I was Signal, not Chemical.


For some reason, I think he's decided that means I don't know anything about any other Desert-Storm-related topics, but *he* was the one who got debunked in record time by a Snopes link.  Seems to me he could stand to pipe down and learn something.


Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@Bulls_3y3 @Tuna Meowt @Philo_Farnsworth "oh lookie I got a stalker:"


If you come in here and act like a Richard to everyone, what do you expect?


"How many times you going to type HIKE???"


Until you TAKE that HIKE and disappear.

Brosephus
Brosephus

@Philo_Farnsworth 

Talking about yourself?  Don't see you traveling to the ME with a M4 in hand.  Sounds like you're white flagging as well.

Kamchak
Kamchak

@Bulls_3y3 

 I'm right end of story...

Snopes says, Epic. Fail.

Just remindin'.

Sport.

Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@Bulls_3y3 @Tuna Meowt @Philo_Farnsworth "well then keep posting your lies stalker..."


XD (laughing)


Whatevs, Pumpkin.  I haven't lied once, but you've been debunked by Snopes in record time.  Those emotions you're feeling are embarrassment and anger.  XD


"It makes me wonder if you treat your wife in the same manner:"


Of course not.   She's intelligent and polite, unlike you.  Therefore, I treat her far better than I treat you.


"I'm right"


Not in any sort of real-world factual way, no, you're not.    :D


"end of story..."


It might be the end of your arguments, but that doesn't make you any more right than you were a half-hour ago, STOOPIT.


Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@Bulls_3y3 @Tuna Meowt @Philo_Farnsworth "from here it looks like more lies from tuna..."


Is what the loser says after getting his hind end handed to him.


Try Campho-Phenique on that butthurt, Pumpkin.


"FYI: I'm right end of story."


FYI, the only claim you posted was debunked in about thirty seconds, so no, you're not.


"is what you say to your wife..."


Shrug.  At least I have a wife.  All you have is your hand, and half the time you can't even get lucky THAT way.


"Keep up stalker..."


Keep whining, STOOPIT loser.

 

Bulls_3y3
Bulls_3y3

@Tuna Meowt @Bulls_3y3 @Philo_Farnsworth 

the only claim you posted was debunked in about thirty seconds

Yet you keep mouthing off which makes me think I got under your thin skin stalker

So in the end I'm right end of story.

Tuna Meowt
Tuna Meowt

@Bulls_3y3 @Tuna Meowt @Philo_Farnsworth "the only claim you posted was debunked in about thirty seconds"


No, it wasn't.  You debunked NOTHING.  Furthermore, I *politely offered* you supporting links, and you didn't even respond to the offer.


"Yet you keep mouthing off"


And you keep making unsupported and unprovable claims which are *easily* disproven.


"which makes me think I got under your thin skin stalker"


Except you didn't.  You're just STOOPIT, poorly-informed and not interested in learning anything.  And I LOVE to abuse people like that.   XD


"So in the end I'm right"


So in the end you're wrong AND you're a bonehead.   XD



honested
honested

@LogicalDude @Philo_Farnsworth 

Settle in for 50 or 60 years of continuous waste of blood and treasure I guess.

Some of the attitudes expressed on this disaster point to a lack of adequate World History education in both High School and College. Maybe it's time we look at what happens when civil wars never end and apply what we learn.