On abortion, Trump tells an accidental truth

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It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen: Once in a while, usually accidentally and usually out of naivete and ignorance, Donald Trump utters something close to a truthful statement.

The most recent example occurred last week, when the supposedly pro-life Trump pointed out that if abortion is outlawed, then “there has to be some form of punishment” for pregnant women who break the law by seeking the procedure illegally. Horrified Republicans and pro-life leaders rushed to condemn Trump’s statement, reassuring voters that if they succeed in banning abortion, they have no intention of prosecuting women who decide to seek an abortion anyway.  The criticism grew so harsh that Trump himself later backtracked, taking the out that a woman who seeks an abortion should be considered a blameless “victim.” Doctors and anybody else complicit in an abortion could be prosecuted, but not the woman who actively seeks it out and pays someone to perform it.

Sorry. That’s nonsense.

The central moral, legal, ethical and religious argument of the pro-life movement is that life begins at conception, that abortion is murder, and it is murder in all circumstances. When a pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, for example, abortion would still be murder, which is why Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and an increasing number of other Republicans insist on banning the procedure even in those cases. That is also the position of Georgia Right to Life. Abortion is murder even when the fetus is known to be fatally compromised, with no chance of surviving outside the womb. By the logic of the pro-life movement, nature must be allowed to run its full course in those tragic cases, and intervening is akin to a mercy killing or euthanasia.

I respect individuals who take that position and who live their lives by it, even if I disagree with their choice. But if we write into our laws that an embryo/fetus is a child, and that abortion is the murder of a child, then a woman who pays money to have her own “child” “murdered” is herself a murderer. There is no logical way around that conclusion.

The escape hatch cited by Trump, in which pregnant women are magically classified as “victims” to excuse them from the consequences of their act, works only if we pretend that a pregnant woman is too addled by hormones and the weak-mindedness inherent in her gender to be held responsible for her actions at such a time. It’s inherently misogynistic, and contradicts everything that the pro-life movement professes to believe.

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1332 comments
Allen1098
Allen1098

Classic moral teaching is " the principle of the double effect." For example a doctor could go in and remove a uterine cancer. If the unborn child inadvertently dies that is permissible. Provided there was no direct assault on the child. The child's death was an unintended consequence of saving the mother.

Tee Parker
Tee Parker

Nope . You don't have to punish neither person God will deal with that situation in his own way. Amen

Brandon J Keeler
Brandon J Keeler

This is another example of bullying. One can't tell someone what to do in a free at will country. Let them make their own decisions.

AzaleaAnnie
AzaleaAnnie

But our country (and every other country) does tell people what to do......and what not to do.  Best examples:  murder is illegal;  robbery is illegal.  



Phoenix Quill
Phoenix Quill

Chris Matthews KNOWS that changing Abortion Law isn't on Trumps agenda & that Presidents don't get to write Abortion Law.He also knows that Abortion, legal or not, is 'self punishing', the penalty being the death of your future child.
So, big shock, this is yet another lame ass 'gotcha' question, from yet another lame ass partisan hack.Dems are just fine with killing potential Women in the womb, but if anyone in the GOP objects, we're the haters.
And JFTR there is not a 'growing number' on the Right who object to Abortion.Barry Goldwater, the founder of Modern Conservatism, felt it was not the business of the Federal Government, particularly the Judicial branch, to address the issue at all.Much of the growing anger on the Right is reaction to Leftist legislation FORCING public funding, adding insult to the injury of the initial Judicial activism. 

C_Casselberry
C_Casselberry

@Phoenix Quill So poor Donald is a victim and Chris is evil for asking questions of Drumpf's position. Sorry but answering questions is about personal responsibility. Drumpf answered "truthfully" and it was an inconvenient truth for the vagina police of the rethuglican party.

PaulinNH
PaulinNH

Did I seriously read posts where someone wants to have forced sterilizations of poor women?

td1234
td1234

@PaulinNH What are your proposals for making parents become responsible for their actions?  How do we (the taxpayers) get out of paying to raise the children of parents that are not responsible without punishing the child for the actions of the parent? 

honested
honested

@td1234 @BuckeyeGa 

Why don't we start with responsible sex education and family planning to PREVENT unwanted pregnancies?

If the period from 2001-2008 taught us anything, it was that 'abstinence only' was a dismal failure.

HeyJude404
HeyJude404

It was about as successful as "Just say no" was against drugs. Instead of railing against organizations that provide birth control, support them or at least stop trying to shut them down!

td1234
td1234

@BuckeyeGa Nope, read what has been said. I agreed with Breck that men should be sterilized if they do not take care of their responsibilities.  

AzaleaAnnie
AzaleaAnnie

Responsible sex education has been taught for decades. 


Teen pregnancy rates rose for decades;  dropped in the past couple of decades thanks to the mandatory welfare-to-work laws. 


Abortion rates for decades have shown us how well sex education works.  @honested @td1234 @BuckeyeGa

C_Casselberry
C_Casselberry

@td1234 @PaulinNH Easy tiny d, teach real education on how to prevent pregnancy and make birth control pills available in grocery stores and pharmacies and c-stores along with condoms.

RantNRave
RantNRave

"I have absolutely no problem with your statement. I also have no problem with fixing women that are on welfare for say more than x amount of time since they can not take care of their children then they should not have more for the taxpayer to take care of. "


@TD4321


There is a difference that is not fair or reasonable when


determining who needs help!



There are 29 percent of births to unmarried "White" women.


However, U.S. Department of  Agriculture data from 2013,


 which administers welfare shows that,


40.2 percent of SNAP recipients ARE WHITE


25.7 percent are BLACK


10.3 percent are HISPANICS


2.1 percent are ASIAN


1.2 percent are NATIVE AMERICAN.





td1234
td1234

@PaulinNH Well there are many studies that tell us the best situation for children is in a two parent intact home. 

td1234
td1234

@RantNRave So then people will begin to take responsibility of their actions, like not getting pregnant outside of marriage so that children could be taken care of properly and not become a dependent of the state. 

td1234
td1234

@RantNRave Make sure you place the statement in context as well when I agreed with Breck that men should be fixed when they do not take care of children they produce. 


I am an equal opportunity person when it comes to taking responsibility for the children you choose to produce.  

PaulinNH
PaulinNH

@td1234 @RantNRave  "like not getting pregnant outside of marriage so that children could be taken care of properly and not become a dependent of the state."/// 

Is it the outside of marriage or the not being taken care or properly that you have the problem with - because they are not mutually exclusive in either direction.

honested
honested

@td1234 @RantNRave 

So do you agree that additional funding for Sex Education, Family Planning and contraception need to be made permanently available to all who have interest?

Do you separate the concept of 'sex' from the pointless concept of uncontrolled population growth?

honested
honested

@td1234 @PaulinNH 

There are many studies that suggest adequate nutrition is available when wages are higher.

AzaleaAnnie
AzaleaAnnie

@RantNRave When people post statistics, it's good if the whole truth is posted.  Your statistical information is incomplete;  to look at your percentages of SNAP recipients, the population numbers must be looked at as well.  Here's the rest of the story:


62.1 percent are White  

13.2 percent are Black

17.4 percent are Hispanic

5.4   percent are Asian

1.2   percent are Native American


As many Hispanics properly self-identify as White, I thought it would be good to show the White population as 77.4%, as that's how the US Census shows the first number of White Americans - including Hispanics and Latinos.     


But I chose to use the breakdown of races just as you chose, for clarity.  


Numbers I posted are from http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/00

C_Casselberry
C_Casselberry

@td1234 @RantNRave No need for the provision that children must only be conceived by two people married to each other. Drumpf has conceived several kids outside of marriage and apparently supports them so it can and is done all the time. Marriage is a good way to raise kids but kids raised in a bad marriage gain little or no benefit from watching parents dump on each other.

JamVet
JamVet

"We have one guy with no experience and the other guy whose experience amounts to shutting down the government and calling the majority leader a liar," Kasich said of his two opponents, according to the Post. "How do we go to a convention and we pick somebody that can't beat Hillary?


The Degenerate and the Canadian fighting for the silver medal is as interesting as Russia and China battling for it...

rimsky
rimsky

A trial on 163 heart failure patients found supplements of the vitamin, which is made in the skin when exposed to sunlight, improved their hearts' ability to pump blood around the body.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-35959556     /////

Conservatives have a solution to their cold heart.

StraightNoChaser
StraightNoChaser

@td1234 "fixing women"

Eugenics?  Nazi Germany?  Early 19th and 20th century United States? Your ideas are so antiquated that it is ridiculous.  Wow

StraightNoChaser
StraightNoChaser

@JamVet @StraightNoChaser @td1234 20th century mentality of a Reaganite.  That's why the Republican party is in such a disarray.  The rest of the country joined the 21st century and they are still stuck like a junkie in a trap house.

td1234
td1234

@StraightNoChaser YES, fixing women and men that refuse to take care of their own responsibilities and leave it up to the state to take care of their children. 


Yes, we know that progressives have no problem with not allowing people to be held accountable for their actions but someone has to be the adult in the room. 

td1234
td1234

@Donnie_Pinko @DownInAlbany This trade war threat is just hyperbole. What happened in Japan when they tried unfair trade practices in the 1980's and RR hit them with 45% tariffs on motorcycles and electronics? 


Same would happen today with China if we had a leader that would stand up to the other countries unfair practices.  

td1234
td1234

@Donnie_Pinko You tell us what stands out in your mind because very little has changed in my mind.

Donnie_Pinko
Donnie_Pinko

So has Vladimir Putin been run out of Moscow on a rail yet? 

I mean, it's been two whole days since the brave journalists at Guardian splashed his mug on their front pages with dark insinuations about his scandalous financial secrets right as the Panama Papers broke, obviously aiming for maximum impact. Two whole days.

Visual_Cortex
Visual_Cortex

Nifty scientifical research to prove what everyone probably already knew about human sacrifice.

That it's always been about powerful people making up magical-thinking stories to keep ordinary folks down and in a world of excrement.


Of the 20 “egalitarian” societies they studied — so termed because they didn’t allow inheritance of wealth and status between generations — just 25 percent practiced human sacrifice. By contrast, 37 percent of the 46 moderately stratified societies — where wealth and status could be inherited, but it wasn’t necessarily linked to wildly different living standards or pronounced social classes —had the practice. And among the 27 highly stratified cultures, where inherited class differences were strictly enforced with little opportunity for social mobility, a whopping 65 percent committed ritual killings.


more here

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/05/the-darker-link-between-ancient-human-sacrifice-and-our-modern-world/

and here

http://theconversation.com/why-did-early-human-societies-practice-violent-human-sacrifice-55380

breckenridge
breckenridge

You can blame men on a great deal of things, and any man that has a child with a women must be held accountable for that child, but you cannot really blame a man on the actual pregnancy because the woman controls 100% that whole situation. 

Well TD let me share what will likely be an unpopular idea here. Say a guy, some guy, any guy, is a deadbeat dad.  Has kids, refuses to support them, even though he may have the means to do so.  Give him an option .........look buddy either a) start supporting your kids or b) have a vasectomy.   Those are your choices - pick one.  Because if you aren't supporting the kid(s) you have now, you damn sure don't need to have more.


td1234
td1234

@breckenridge I have absolutely no problem with your statement. I also have no problem with fixing women that are on welfare for say more than x amount of time since they can not take care of their children then they should not have more for the taxpayer to take care of. 

PurdueTone
PurdueTone

Fixing women? How enlightened of you.....

td1234
td1234

@_GodlessHeathen_ The fixing men part could pass the DNC but the even thinking about fixing women is an unforgivable sin.